What matters most is that forests continue to function for people, wildlife, and the climate.

Dr. William Keeton is a forest ecologist and silviculturalist at the University of Vermont who has spent most of his career studying old-growth forests in the eastern United States and around the world. In this conversation, he joins hosts Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds to examine what old growth actually is, where it still exists in the East, and why its fate matters for climate, biodiversity, and the landscapes future generations will inherit.

The episode opens with a deceptively simple question: what is an old-growth forest? Keeton explains that old growth is not a fixed condition but a stage of forest development characterized by structural complexity, habitat diversity, and a suite of ecological functions including carbon storage, hydrologic regulation, and biodiversity support. He pushes back on the assumption that eastern forests have nothing to offer compared to towering Pacific Northwest Douglas firs or coastal redwoods, walking through the surprising inventory findings of the past few decades that reveal far more old growth in the eastern United States than was previously believed, from the Adirondacks of upstate New York to the Southern Appalachians and the longleaf pine systems of the Gulf Coast. The conversation also takes the listener below the surface, into the soil, where Keeton discusses the growing understanding of mycorrhizal fungi networks, deep soil carbon, and why a recent study found Swedish old-growth forests store eighty-three percent more carbon than middle-aged forests, with most of that difference buried underground.

The episode closes with a discussion of the roadless rule and the current political effort to repeal it, the role of international scientific exchange in shaping old-growth policy across Europe and beyond, and Keeton’s measured optimism about the future. He argues that regardless of how a forest becomes old, whether through passive rewilding or careful ecological forestry, what matters most is that forests continue to function for people, wildlife, and the climate. For listeners who care about public lands, forest policy, and the long arc of ecological recovery, this is a conversation that connects the science to the stakes with rare clarity.

Photo credit: William S. Keeton

In this episode:

• What old growth actually means Keeton explains that old-growth forest is a stage of succession defined by structural complexity, biodiversity, and function; not a single archetype, and not exclusive to primary forests that have never been touched.
• Eastern old growth and the western shadow  A look at why eastern forests have been systematically undervalued in the public imagination, despite Forest Service inventory data showing a significant old-growth presence from the Appalachians to the Gulf Coast.
• Primary versus secondary old growth  Keeton discusses the scientific and philosophical debate over whether a forest must have developed without human intervention to qualify as old growth, and why he believes it can also be actively restored.
• Invasive species and the future forest  Hemlock woolly adelgid, chestnut blight, emerald ash borer, beech bark and beech leaf disease: Keeton names the cascading threats that are reshaping eastern forest composition and what that means for old growth going forward.
• The underground ecology of old forests A discussion of mycorrhizal fungi networks, deep soil carbon storage, and why scientists continue to revise upward the proportion of carbon locked in forest soils, especially old ones.
• Ecological forestry as a restoration tool  Keeton describes long-term silvicultural studies at the University of Vermont and elsewhere that show carefully planned forestry can accelerate the redevelopment of old-growth characteristics.
• Roadless areas as old-growth refuges  Anders Reynolds notes that roadless areas, excluding Alaska, contain roughly two and a half times more mature and old-growth forest than designated wilderness areas. Keeton discusses why roadless protection matters for flood control and species that require low human presence, not just old growth.
• International exchange and European old growth  Keeton describes the transatlantic scientific exchange that helped Europe recognize and inventory its own old growth, and how the EU’s biodiversity strategy has in some ways moved ahead of U.S. policy.
• Optimism and common ground  Keeton closes with a call to move past polarization on forest issues, arguing that concern for the landscape and what we leave our grandchildren is a value that crosses political lines.

Links & Resources

Connect with Dr. Keeton

• University of Vermont, Rubenstein School of Environment and Natural Resources  Dr. Keeton’s faculty page and research lab at the institution where he conducts his long-term old-growth and ecological forestry studies. 
• UVM Scientist Guides Landmark Climate Assessment in Europe
• Bridging the dividing: North American and European old-growth forest conservation
• Late-Successional Forest-Stream Interactions on Dynamic Northeastern Landscapes
• LinkedIn

Media & Books:

• Ecology and Recovery of Eastern Old-Growth Forests by Andrew M. Barton and William S. Keeton: A collection edited by Dr. Keeton and colleagues covering the science, history, and future of old-growth forests across the eastern United States and Canada.
• The Oak and the Larch by Sophie Pinkham: A history of Russia told through its forests, tracing the intertwined cultural and environmental roles of trees across empire and resistance; mentioned by Anders Reynolds as a book on his reading list.

Organizations & Initiatives:

• Eagle Summit Wilderness Alliance  A wilderness advocacy organization whose representative, Eric Malmborg, appears in a sponsor segment during the episode.
• EU 2030 Biodiversity Strategy  A European Union policy framework calling for the conservation and restoration of old-growth and other high-biodiversity forests across member states.

Places & Landscapes:

• Adirondack State Park, New York  Cited by Keeton as a region containing an estimated half million acres of primary old-growth forest, representative of the full range of site conditions in that region.
• Citico Creek Wilderness, Cherokee National Forest, Tennessee  Referenced by Bill Hodge as an example of a landscape clear-cut in the early twentieth century that has since recovered to the point of feeling like old growth, complete with remnants of old logging equipment.
• Ouachita National Forest, Arkansas/Oklahoma  Mentioned by Anders Reynolds as having the highest percentage of old growth in its roadless areas of any national forest south of Alaska.
• Carpathian Mountains, Finland, Scandinavia, the Pyrenees, the Balkans  European regions where Pan-European old-growth inventories, including ones Keeton participated in, have found significantly more old-growth forest than previously recognized.

Government & Policy:

• National Forest Roadless Area Conservation Rule (the Roadless Rule)  A federal policy protecting roughly 58 million acres of national forest land from road construction; discussed in the episode in the context of current efforts to repeal it and its outsized importance as an old-growth refuge.
• Wilderness Act (1964)  The federal law establishing the national wilderness preservation system; discussed in terms of how its pragmatic eastern designations, often covering secondary forest, set in motion long trajectories of forest recovery.
• USDA Forest Service National Inventory of Mature and Old-Growth Forests (2023)  Referenced by Anders Reynolds as a data source showing a significant eastern U.S. presence in national rankings of mature and old-growth forest acreage.

William Keeton is a Professor of Forest Ecology and Forestry at the University of Vermont. There he directs the Carbon Dynamics Laboratory and is a Fellow in the Gund Institute for Environment. He is on the boards for Science for the Carpathians, and Vibrant Planet – Data Commons. William served as a Fulbright Specialist in Ukraine (2008) and as a Fulbright Scholar in Austria (2021). His co-edited book “Ecology and Recovery of Eastern Old-Growth Forests,” was published by Island Press in 2018.

Dr. Keeton specializes in the study of old-growth and riparian forests, carbon forestry, ecological silviculture, and disturbance dynamics, researching these in the U.S. Northeast, the Pacific Northwest, the Carpathian Mountain region of Europe, the Andes of Chilean Patagonia, and the central Himalayan Mountains of Bhutan. Dr. Keeton holds a B.S. in Natural Resources from Cornell University (’90), a Masters in Conservation Biology and Policy from Yale University (’94), and a Ph.D. in Forest Ecology from the University of Washington (2000).

Learn more about opportunities to sponsor The Wild Idea.

Follow along for updates, upcoming conversations, and live events, and share this episode with someone who cares about wild places, working lands, and the future of our food system. You can also support the show through our Buy Me a Coffee page. 

ubscribe to our show on your favorite podcast player, and be sure to follow us on social media, too: we’re on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn.

We also send out a weekly newsletter with updates on our show: sign up for that list right here.